Ruthie Rogers and Noah Baumbach on the Art of Getting the Best Out of People

For almost 40 years, Ruthie Rogers has run The River Café, the London institution she founded with the late Rose Gray, not just as a restaurant, but as an argument for how a place can change people’s lives. Set on the Thames in West London, it helped rewrite the rules for Italian cooking in the UK. For the people who go there religiously, it’s less about dinner and more of a ritual. Part of what makes it work—the open kitchen, Richard Rogers’s airy design, the insistence that there’s no bad table—is easy enough to describe. The rest, which comes from Rogers herself, is harder to pin down. Her new book, Table 4 at The River Café: Conversations about Food and Life, tries to capture that, adapting her popular podcast Ruthie’s Table 4 into a collection of conversations with the writers, artists, and filmmakers who have made the restaurant their second home. One of them is Noah Baumbach, who, while filming Jay Kelly in the U.K., and while his wife Greta Gerwig was shooting her Narnia movie, made Sundays at The River Café part of their tradition. When he met Rogers in his NYC office a few weeks ago while she was on a promotional tour, the two of them talked about why cookbooks still matter in the age of Instagram, the common threads between restaurants and moviemaking, and how to get the best out of people, in a kitchen and on a film set. 

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RUTHIE ROGERS: Here we are.

NOAH BAUMBACH: I’m very happy to see you in New York. Greta [Gerwig] and I were just in London for two years, so we got to see you and go to The River Café all the time. It was the most special thing.

ROGERS: Yeah.

BAUMBACH: But I’m very happy to see you over here now. We’re out of context, but we’re in a new context.

ROGERS:The context is how much we love each other.

BAUMBACH: Absolutely.

ROGERS: I want to tell every reader of Interview how much I love you. Life brings you people that you didn’t know you were going to meet.

BAUMBACH: That’s true.

ROGERS: There are different sections of the book. There’s food and family, food and tradition, food and discovery, food and art, food and politics, and I think there’s food and food. I’m not really sure which section you would be in. You’re probably food and family.

BAUMBACH: We talk about all of those things. You and I bond strongly over food and tradition, and gathering.

ROGERS: You were working during the week and with your children, and I was working. So we had Sunday lunch at The River Café, and you showed a movie every week.

BAUMBACH: Sunday morning was the movie, and Sunday afternoon was River Café.

ROGERS: When we first started doing that, we were saying goodbye, and I said, “We’ll see you next week,” and I think Harold [Baumbach’s son] said, “Is this a tradition?” And you or Greta said, “Yeah, Harold. This is the meaning of tradition, that you do something that you love and will last all your life.” So the name for our Sunday lunches became, “Am I seeing you for tradition?” “Are we going to have tradition together? What time should we meet for tradition?”

BAUMBACH: I love tradition, and The River Café is such a great place to have a tradition. Like all great things, you can describe all the ingredients, and I don’t mean just the food. I mean everything, the design, the feeling of the whole thing. You can break it down and say, “Well, this is so great,” the way Richard looked at the room, the oven, the great staff. But there’s some other thing that goes on in there, and it has to be you.

ROGERS: I think it’s all him.

BAUMBACH: It’s the same thing as when you see a great movie. There are some movies that are great and you can break it all down and describe all the things. But then there are some movies you see, and something just works.

ROGERS: Yeah.

BAUMBACH: And of course, it wouldn’t work if it didn’t have all these ingredients, but there’s also some kind of electric thing that happens. I feel it every time I go into that room. I feel relaxed, and I’m always excited. I love that you can just sit for as long as you want.

ROGERS: It also works both ways. Now I go when I know you’re coming, we sit together, and we order together. We almost don’t even have to speak.

BAUMBACH: We over-order.

ROGERS: And we don’t let anybody in. If you and I are there with eight other people, they make this feeble attempt to say, “What should I have?” We go, “Sorry. We’ll do this for you.” It’s having the same language where you don’t need words. Before the pandemic, if you’d asked me, “What’s important to a city?” I would say, “Parks, theaters, hospitals, education, museums.” And then when we didn’t have restaurants for those months, I think people really missed them.

BAUMBACH: Yeah.

ROGERS: When people came back after the pandemic, they were quite emotional about what they loved. And I think it works both ways, because of people like you coming into the restaurant. It was, “Noah’s here and Greta’s here, or the family’s here.” And then it was almost like you were part of the family. You made the restaurant better when you came in. I’d certainly look out and say, “Oh, Noah’s here. I’m safe.” And I’d watch you. Having an open kitchen means you can see how people are, and how they’re reacting. I often say that people do very private things in a very public space. What is it that we like about a restaurant? It gives us safety. It might even give you safety to do something that you wouldn’t want to do at home. A conversation, an announcement, a plan. People announce affairs, they announce divorce, they get hired, they get fired, all this dynamic goes on. Every table has a story.

BAUMBACH: I know you say to your staff to keep in mind that for any person in there it could be an anniversary, it could be a birthday, it could be the first time they were ever there.

ROGERS: They might have saved up for it.

BAUMBACH: Right. You don’t know the story, so you want to come with an openness, and you feel that in the room. I feel that even as I was spoiled to go there so much, it felt special every single time.

ROGERS: I think Richard’s architecture did help. There is a kind of democracy. There is no great table. All the tables, personally, we love.

BAUMBACH: Wes [Anderson] and I always say it’s the only restaurant where we actually don’t request a table.

ROGERS: Oh, right. [Laughs] Yeah, somebody once said to me, “Where are the cool tables?” And I said, “I don’t know. Some people like to sit near the wood oven, some people like to sit near the bar. Some people don’t want the window. Some people don’t want their back to the window.” So there’s choice. I hope there’s a feeling that wherever you sit you’re going to be taken care of.

BAUMBACH: It feels that way. It feels like we’re all at the good table.

ROGERS: But I also think that very few of us actually get to see our friends at work. If you have a friend who’s a lawyer, you don’t necessarily go to court and listen to them, or if you have a friend who’s an architect, you’re not behind the drawing board with them.

BAUMBACH: Right.

ROGERS: But one of the great days was going to set with you for your beautiful movie, Jay Kelly. It was a new experience for me, actually seeing how it was made. We always want to know the process, and what happens behind the scenes, but for me, it was really the way that from 8 in the morning until 8 at night, the way you, as I hope I do, lead. And you are directing, not just in terms of whether somebody stands behind a desk, or in front of a desk, but how everybody works together. And you did it through calmness, empathy, and rigor. That’s what I try to achieve with the restaurant.

BAUMBACH: That’s what I feel with you, too. What you say about having friends at work is really interesting, because it is something that I try to include in every movie I do, which is why I wanted you there.

ROGERS: We should explain to the reader that I had a 30-second role in this incredible movie, Jay Kelly.

BAUMBACH: Yeah, Ruthie appears in the memorial scene. But I like to have friends in my movies, not only because it’s nice to be with them during the day, but also—and I think this is true for you too in the context of the restaurant—there is something about having things that are meaningful to you, but also things from your life, things that are representations of you in the work, in the frame, in the restaurant. Just the same way you have Richard and Rose, but it’s all you. So when your friends are there too, it’s part of the same thing.

ROGERS: Yeah.

BAUMBACH: There’s already history in it.

ROGERS: And with Harold and Isadora, we had a routine where they’d get a little gastro, and go pick the herbs, or Harold was in charge of the outside garden space.

BAUMBACH: Right.

ROGERS: And I think that was a way of saying, “Well, this is your place. You’ll remember this maybe when you do somebody’s podcast in 50 years,” and remember how you learned how a restaurant works. And I look at how a movie works. Actually, Harold was on the set that day when I came. Do you remember? And Adam Sandler was there. And it was the way everybody incorporated this child, the way that he was part of the film, but he understood both having to be involved and be quiet, but he also was fun. The actors were really fun with him, and I thought that was great. I never heard you once tell anybody to stop doing something, or start doing something. You did it with such grace.

BAUMBACH: Something I often think about is how when we’re all there we’re all working, but we’re also all there together and we’re all having an experience. So there isn’t necessarily a clear shift between when they’re doing the lines and when we’re filming.

ROGERS: Yeah.

BAUMBACH: In a sense, I always feel that way seeing you at the restaurant, because I often forget you’re actually at work. But you’re also there greeting people, and it has that same thing. And I think having an open kitchen has that, too. There’s something about the seeming transparency that also makes it more accessible. You feel like you’re part of the experience. It’s not like some restaurants where everyone disappears into some other room and then they bring the food out. I think there is something that feels very inviting.

ROGERS: And also, how do you get the best out of people? You know how to get the best out of people. And that’s why your movies are so good. There are kitchens that think they can get the best out of people through being quite tough.

BAUMBACH: Right.

ROGERS: You have a routine, and if that steak isn’t ready, you get punished, or you get told off, or you get shoved away, and somebody takes your place. I’ve seen chefs in a panic in the kitchen because they didn’t put the pizza in at the right time, or their vegetables aren’t ready, and the fish is ready, and something will be cold. And how do you help them? That’s what we try to do in the kitchen. But I will say that if they don’t do it there is trouble, because somebody is sitting at that table and they’ve paid, and our job is to get that ready on time and for it to be hot. And so you have to do it, but if you add to the panic or the stress of that person, it’s going to get worse.

BAUMBACH: Right.

ROGERS: I have stepped in at times and said, “You know what? I’m going to finish this veal shank,” because I really want to help you, but there is somebody out there waiting. On the other hand, there are other times where you can say, “Slow down on your veal.” There’s a collaborative thing, and for me a more pleasant way to work is to get the best out of people by understanding the person who is doing it.

BAUMBACH: Absolutely. There are several differences, but the process of making movies is centrally the same. I’m telling a different story with different people, and some of the same people. You are returning to the same space. The menu can change, but there are things you almost always make, I assume.

ROGERS: I watched you, because we’re all—

BAUMBACH: You’re trying to talk more about me, I’m trying to talk about you.

ROGERS: [Laughs] Okay.

BAUMBACH: As you do this over and over, I’m sure there are plenty of things you’ve learned and adjusted. But can you think of things where you’ve said, “Oh, I do this now, and I used to do that”?

ROGERS: Yeah. A friend of mine who is a theater director came when we first opened the completely open kitchen. I said to him, “Doesn’t it look to you like a theater? Here we all are on a set, and it’s the theater.” And he said, “It reminds me more of ballet, because the way when you have an open kitchen you don’t…” Sometimes people do shout, “Two ravioli and one risotto, and four taglioni.” You have to call out, because your chef is over there, and they can’t look at the tickets. And it’s like that noise—

BAUMBACH: “Cheeseburger, cheeseburger, cheeseburger.”

ROGERS: Exactly. A lot of modern kitchens have it all digital, and it comes around a computer, and everybody gets their ticket.

BAUMBACH: Right.

ROGERS: We don’t. One of the things we do is write a menu for every meal. The chef comes in, and we write it. And then more and more, I look at a menu that maybe somebody else has written, or I have myself, and I think, “What could I take away?” Like, you and I love the rib-eye, and then we might have horseradish, and then you might have fresh Borlotti beans and spinach. I’ll think, “Do we need Borlotti beans and spinach?” It’s not about being precious.

BAUMBACH: You’re just refining.

ROGERS: What can you do to make it so less is more?

BAUMBACH: I was thinking about that actually, because I’m writing again. I write so much dialog, and I was like, “I’m just going to really try to keep this as spare as I can.” I can take the Borlotti beans out.

ROGERS: [Laughs] Another thing we probably share in movies and in the kitchen is that there’s a lot of solitary work, because you’re writing by yourself, and I’m thinking about ordering, or the menus, but then I do love when the collaboration starts. I love having somebody say, “Let’s take that off,” and then they’re like, “No, Ruthie. I should keep it on,” and somebody challenges you. I’m in such awe of the people.

BAUMBACH: Yeah. Maybe we should talk—

ROGERS: About the book?

BAUMBACH: Yeah. What number book is this for you?

ROGERS: Fourteen. I know, it’s crazy.

BAUMBACH: Amazing. You almost have to think of your books as their own career, in a way.

ROGERS: Yeah. And then you think, “Well, what will be books? What are books?”

BAUMBACH: Right.

ROGERS: Now you can look at Instagram. I think it’s fantastic. Somebody was saying, “Isn’t it terrible that people just look at their phones?” But actually, if you want to learn to make something step-by-step, the little films are great. On the other hand, books are aspirational. Nora Ephron wrote that great essay about cooking in Gourmet. There were incredible photographs, incredible recipes, and it transported you. But did you actually ever make one?

BAUMBACH: Right.

ROGERS: You can take a cookbook to bed and read it. And so I think there is still room for really good books.

BAUMBACH: For me, I see the spine of one of your books on the shelf, and I feel closer to you, but also I feel closer to the restaurant, too. It’s like taking a matchbook when you leave a place or something.

BAUMBACH: Should we end with something good? What do we say?

ROGERS: Yeah. Let’s end.

BAUMBACH: “I love you, Ruthie.”

ROGERS: I love you. And I miss you. And I’m being so brave about you not being in London and saying, “We’re fine,” and we’ll just visit each other here, and the fact is it’s shit.

BAUMBACH: It’s rough. I miss you, but I also really miss the restaurant.

ROGERS: The restaurant misses you. People knew exactly what you wanted. You didn’t even have to order.

BAUMBACH: It was great.

ROGERS: Not to judge, but we know your wine.

BAUMBACH: [Laughs]