Sarah Sherman Spills Her Guts to Stavros Halkias

To the millions watching Saturday Night Live, she is Sarah Sherman, the live-wire cast member who, among other things, excels at terrorizing Colin Jost. But to the acolytes of the comedy underground, she has always been Sarah Squirm, the writhing, intestine-wearing clown princess of body horror. Since joining SNL five years ago, the Long Island native has operated in the tension between these two selves. Now, the mask is fully off. With her debut HBO special, Sarah Squirm: Live + in the Flesh, she reminds us that the polished network star is just a cover for the weirdo within. To dissect that duality, she got on a Zoom with fellow comedy deviant and longtime pal Stavros Halkias. The result is an unhinged dispatch from the front lines of shame, fame, and bodily functions.

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STAVROS HALKIAS: Congratulations. The special’s awesome.

SARAH SHERMAN: I can’t believe you watched it.

HALKIAS: What do you mean?

SHERMAN: I keep feeling like no one’s ever going to watch it.

HALKIAS: [Laughs] I would’ve watched it even if I didn’t have to interview you because your more famous friends all said no. Is that what happened? 

SHERMAN: Yeah.

HALKIAS: What was the list? Who were the people you wanted to get, and then you ended up with me?

SHERMAN: The first person on the list was Paul Reubens.

HALKIAS: [Laughs] Seance style. That would be awesome.

SHERMAN: It is kind of sick that we’re in a place now in our lives where you’re famous and I’m asking you to do an interview.

HALKIAS: I know.

SHERMAN: It is wrong.

HALKIAS: It’s really funny that you’re on SNL, and I have a better life than you [Laughs].

SHERMAN: Look at my house! You are at an Airbnb with a hot tub in Austin for a bachelorette party. I’m in a shitty two-bedroom apartment that I haven’t repainted with cream walls  and that is too small for all the hoarding.

HALKIAS: [Laughs] It looks great. There it is, the clown closet. That is beautiful. What was the first moment, as a little—

SHERMAN: Here he goes! Interview magazine!

HALKIAS: Well, looking at the clown closet, it is a question. Was there a moment when you were a little-ass kid, and you put on your first frilly collar, and you were like, “This is me”?

SHERMAN: Thank you for bringing this up. My Aunt Cleo was a hoarder and she was the most fabulous woman alive. She had a collection of Bakelite jewelry, which is—

HALKIAS: I remember that stuff.

SHERMAN: You do?

HALKIAS: My mom was very artistic. For a while, she was making jewelry with Bakelite, and she was selling it. 

SHERMAN: She was probably making dough-re-mi with Bakelite.

HALKIAS: She was doing okay. In hindsight, it was more that she had a five-year-old and two three-year-olds and had no creative outlet. 

SHERMAN: Well, I can imagine you were a peach [Laughs].

HALKIAS: First of all, I was the man. I peaked at five. I was an incredibly well-behaved, well-mannered kid. My mom was like, “Something happened the summer you turned six.” I turned into a fat little slob.

SHERMAN: When was your tracksuit era? 

HALKIAS: I always liked tracksuits. I guess we both have a distinctive style. For me, it was a little more gradual, but for you, I feel like it’s the way someone’s gender identity—they snap into it, and yours is clown. More than she/her, your pronouns are maybe honk/honk. How about that for off the dome?

SHERMAN: Interview magazine, you’re welcome. Boing. Boing.

HALKIAS: So your aunt.

SHERMAN: She was the most fabulous woman alive. She was in head-to-toe vintage, wore her hair in a beehive and had these cat-eye glasses. Very Grey Gardens-y. She and her husband would make bracelets out of Mahjong tiles. Every year, my big gift from the hoarders was they would get me a Halloween costume. 

HALKIAS: What was the big first one?

SHERMAN: It was very nondescript, but it said “spider queen,” and it was a long gown with a popped Vampira collar and long wizard sleeves, and it was black. The lapels were bright orange with glittery spider webs. And then the chest had this giant orange chest plate with spider webs and a giant spider right here.

HALKIAS: That’s awesome.

SHERMAN: With a black, straight, long wig. I remember feeling so cunty and glamorous. I actually have chills thinking about this. I was the fucking spider queen. I remember coming into school and feeling so sexy.

HALKIAS: As a fucking six-year-old [Laughs]. You were feeling yourself.

SHERMAN: I was fucking feeling myself.

HALKIAS: That’s interesting because that’s a different vibe than what you’re going for now. What you liked was the intensity turned all the way up, and you eventually found yourself to gross clown as opposed to sexy spider queen.

SHERMAN: Right. When I was opening for Wham City Comedy, I was just doing Sarah guts era, so anytime I would perform, I would make these jumpsuits that had hand-painted intestines and viscera and lungs on them. And I didn’t know how to wash the costumes because it was water-soluble paint. I sprayed the armpits with vodka and just prayed you couldn’t smell me from the stage. The jumpsuits were just really tight and then just the body stopped giving what it was giving. Then I started moving into the clown silhouette.

HALKIAS: This is so fascinating because it’s body insecurity that pushed you to clowning, whereas I thought it would be a spiritual connection to buffoons. 

SHERMAN: It was body first, and then Ruby McCollister, friend of the pod, was working at an afterschool program, and in the dress-up box, there was this stunning Raggedy Ann clown suit. She got me this because I’d always dressed clownish, just because I like color. She was like, “You need to be wearing this.” Then, when I wore the clown suit on stage, movement was funnier. That’s why the clown has a crazy silhouette, because the movement is funnier. And David Brown, who you might know from Jury Duty, said, “Well, now the subtext has become the text.”

HALKIAS: Interesting. I would’ve thought there was a moment where you’re 11, and you see a clown costume, and you’re going to school dressed as a clown. But you’re coming to clown later in the game, which is interesting.

SHERMAN: I love costumes. In middle school, I was friends with Ms. Orange, who ran the costumes for the middle school plays, and she would let me rummage through the costume department. I would wear Victorian hoop skirts to school.  

HALKIAS: It is a perfect match because I also think it gives you a real buoyancy. Your movement on stage really highlights it. You look like you’re bouncing. How do you start doing that? Sarah Squirm as an open mic-er? I can’t even fathom what that looks like.

SHERMAN: Did you not know me as that?

HALKIAS: No, I didn’t know you in Chicago. I was kind of aware of you because of Ben O’Brien, who is my creative producer. You went on tour with him, and then he was your tour manager, and then you rented a garage space together in L.A. So I knew about you, and I thought your stuff was interesting

SHERMAN: Definitely interesting. Might not be funny, but definitely interesting.

HALKIAS: I thought the special’s great. But I’m curious, what was the first thing that you keyed into as a performer? Because it’s a very maximalist show. You’ve clearly put a lot of thought into everything, and we can get into all those elements. As a performer, what’s the first thing you keyed in on that made you comfortable on stage? You know what I mean?

SHERMAN: Yes.

HALKIAS: What do you look like when it’s just you and a microphone? 

SHERMAN: Well, I did my first open mic when I was 16. It was The Hog Pit in NYC. I wore a bow tie, and the host made fun of me. I don’t remember who it was but I’ve really tried to go back into the unconscious to find his face. He made fucking fun of me. I was fucking 16 at a fucking barbecue restaurant doing a joke. It was something about my virginity being on the Antiques Roadshow because I was like, “I’m so old for not getting laid.”

HALKIAS: [Laughs] You were a 16-year-old joking about auctioning off your virginity? 

SHERMAN: Yes. 

HALKIAS: That’s really fascinating.

SHERMAN: It wasn’t until I moved to Chicago and I started doing shows in the DIY scene with noise bros, that I was like, “Everyone else is doing the craziest performance art shit so I can do comedy with video elements.” I always find it so crazy when people start coming up in New York or L.A., because it’s like, when do you bomb?

HALKIAS:  Were you a good student?

SHERMAN: Yes. I loved school.

HALKIAS: Really? I would not have guessed that.

SHERMAN: What are you talking about? I don’t party, and I don’t have fun.

HALKIAS: But I think that’s just more your personality. I thought you were a dumb loser, not a nerd [Laughs].

SHERMAN: John Waters is in the special, and in his book, Shock Value, he basically is like, “If you did well in school, you’ll never be an artist.” So when I met him, I was paranoid that he could smell the good student on me.

HALKIAS: He’s the man. I was very jealous, obviously.

SHERMAN: You never met him in Baltimore?

HALKIAS: No, I just met him when I did Mulaney’s show, which was awesome. Don’t worry. I was on camera with him first, but nice try, bitch [Laughs].

SHERMAN: Aren’t you at least at all curious about what the first video I ever did live was?

HALKIAS: What was it?

SHERMAN: Well, I found out that people were clearing weeds out of their property by hiring large hordes of goats. They literally hire a bunch of goats to come to your property and eat all your weeds. I found out that there was a guy in Lake Michigan who had a little island called Goat Island, where he would have hundreds of goats that you could then hire. So I took a boat to Goat Island, and I was in a wedding dress, and I was on an island with hundreds of goats. It wasn’t funny, but it was interesting.

HALKIAS: Which is the classic trademark of your work. [Laughs] Was there a moment where you disgusted an audience, and you were like, “I kind of like this too”?

SHERMAN: It was so early. It wasn’t until I started doing the multimedia performance art stuff that I was like, “I can marry my visual art stuff with performance.” But before that, all the stuff I loved drawing was gross.

HALKIAS: You were a gross doodler as a kid?

SHERMAN: Yeah. I have these old paintings in my childhood bedroom. They’re a demon baby and the pacifier is a severed thumb. And there’s a baby bottle full of intestines. And it’s kind of cute. 

HALKIAS: You’re not dressing weird yet, you’re literally a nerd on Long Island who gets straight As, and you’re just doodling a baby demon sodomizing its babysitter. 

SHERMAN: And I’m dressing really weird.

HALKIAS: You bragged recently that the high school quarterback of your high school asked you out, and you rejected him. What was your style when you rejected the high school quarterback?

SHERMAN: I was addicted to the ’80s so I was addicted to Pat Benatar and sparkly blazers with shoulder pads and statement necklaces. That’s why everyone was like, “Sarah, you’re literally never going to do better than this.” We didn’t have words for Manic Pixie Dream Girl yet, but that’s what that was.

HALKIAS: [Laughs] And where did you get off rejecting the quarterback? Were you in one of those classic relationships with a clearly closeted gay guy in high school?

SHERMAN: Well, my best friend was just an out gay guy, obviously.

HALKIAS: If he was closeted, you guys would’ve dated probably. But you were just best friends [laughs].

SHERMAN: My best friends in high school were gay guys. I can get emotional thinking about this. The way gay guys actually saved my life in every way. I found that journal entry from when I was 10. I wrote about how these two gay guys that my parents were friends with got me a Hello Kitty watch, like, “The homosexual couple came over and gave me a Hello Kitty watch, and I’m obsessed with my Hello Kitty.” I found out about being fabulous from my hoarder aunt and gay guys.

HALKIAS: That’s a powerful combo. A rhinestoned old Jewish lady and two gay guys. Do you remember your first outing into the city? 

SHERMAN: My dad obviously worked in the Garment District and I would go visit him at work. I would walk down the street being like, “I’m the diva of the century.” And a homeless guy was on the street being like, “Help. Help,” so I gave him my bagel, obviously.

HALKIAS: What a philanthropist.

SHERMAN: He gave me a hug and my dad was like, “Stop.” And I was like, “That was the best day of my life. I’m a New Yorker.”

HALKIAS: Is that where you were discovered? Your entertainment career actually did begin very quickly.

SHERMAN: It did.

HALKIAS: Before you were even a performer, you were a model. Isn’t that right, Sarah?

SHERMAN: This is true, Stav. I was scouted to model in a Christmas catalog for Sears. My dad said, “You’re not going to be in a magazine because the pedophiles are going to look in the magazine and hunt you down.” I basically kicked and screamed and begged until he let me do it. And that’s kind of where it all began. And yes, as you know, the photos never made the catalog.

HALKIAS: You got cut. 

SHERMAN: I got cut heavy. I was not photogenic at all.

HALKIAS: You don’t think so? 

SHERMAN: Did I tell you the part when I found the negatives of the photo, and I had bags underneath my eyes because I was so excited for the photos that I didn’t sleep for one second [Laughs]? The next day, I looked like I had fully seen eight holocausts.

HALKIAS: [Laughs] You looked like a Ren & Stimpy close-up. And you were fucking in preschool. And then from there, you were like, “I guess I got to be a performer.”

SHERMAN: Well, when did you want to be a performer? I was day fucking zero.

HALKIAS: Me too.

SHERMAN: I find it very hard to relate to our colleagues, not that there’s anything wrong with this. We know a lot of people who didn’t get into comedy until later. There was never a minute in my life where I didn’t want to be a comedian, to the point where it was a curse for a long time when it was really touch and go on whether or not I would be able to sustain myself. And I was making it really hard for myself to have a career with all the stuff that I was doing, but it didn’t stop me.

HALKIAS: I remember when Ben was like, “Sarah’s auditioning for SNL.” I was like, “Good luck.” [Laughs]

SHERMAN: Everybody was like, “Lol. That’s hilarious.” And Ben was like, “I’m really sad that you have to move to New York.” And I was like, “What are you talking about, dude? I’ll be back.” Ben was the one who was like, “You’re getting it.” I was like, “What are you talking about?” 

HALKIAS: Obviously, you want to be on SNL. It’s maybe the only comedy show that’s guaranteed some social relevancy, right? As long as it’s on, people will pay attention to it. There was almost a symbolic thing where you go from Sarah Squirm to now you’re Sarah Sherman. Even though I knew that was your name, it’s like, “That’s not Sarah. Sarah’s not Sarah Sherman.” Do you ever miss being in a disgusting, dingy jumpsuit that you don’t even know how to clean? And also, did you struggle with being identified as Sarah Sherman? Because I feel, professionally, you were just Sarah Squirm. Did you even ask to be Sarah Squirm on SNL?

SHERMAN: All of my paperwork for SNL still says Sarah Squirm because they found me at a show. When they flew me out for the screen test, it was Sarah Squirm.

HALKIAS: What did you do at your screen test?

SHERMAN: I did a bunch of stuff about my dad. And then I did , “My pussy lips so long.” Shit like that. But now it’s nice because I feel like I accidentally fell into a situation where it’s like I do feel like I have a day job.

HALKIAS: I know what you mean.

SHERMAN: I don’t think that Sarah Squirm could be auditioning to be the ingenue in something.

HALKIAS: Because Sarah Sherman is? How many ingenue fucking self tapes are you doing? [Laughs]

SHERMAN: Sarah Sherman could easily play 18 to 28.

HALKIAS: I do love that. You do joke about your age. What’s interesting about the special and you in general is that you clearly do like very traditional comedy. It’s rapid fire, and you keep the energy. It was really well done, but at the end of the day, your jokes are about being insecure about your body. 

SHERMAN: I’m already pissed off about something that doesn’t exist yet, but people seeing the poster and being like, “I’m not going to watch this bisexual performance art nonsense.” There are jokes in it. 

HALKIAS: Little do you know, asexual [Laughs].

SHERMAN: [Laughs] It’s a very sex-negative special, wouldn’t you say?

HALKIAS: It’s incredibly sex negative. In general, you are pretty sex negative.

SHERMAN: Yes. The line, “Why do they call it achieve orgasm? It’s not an achievement. You should be ashamed.”

HALKIAS: [Laughs] I like that joke a lot. Why are you so sex negative, buddy?

SHERMAN: You know what, Stav? You try being a woman for .425 seconds. I’m a comedian with a lot of shame. Many comedians—actually, everyone basically talks about the shame of sex.

HALKIAS: Or the embarrassment of it. I would consider myself a sex-positive comedian, but no one wants to hear about a cool sexual experience. They want to hear about you blowing it.

SHERMAN: This is why there’s so much, I think, distaste around Dane Cook. He was handsome and shredded.

HALKIAS: He was such an energetic performer, and I think you can sustain it in the moment, but I don’t think it ages well. 

SHERMAN: And neither did his sexual female partners.

HALKIAS: Well, they’re not allowed to age. [Laughs] What’s the end of that thought of you’re a comedian with a lot of shame?

SHERMAN: You’re always trying to get me on this.

HALKIAS: I’m just trying to get you on the record on this. We’re in Interview. Call me Stavros Walters.

SHERMAN: I think a lot of the special is, I hate to say it, about the horrors of having a female body. I used to have a joke about being disgusted about having sex with the lights on. I just have so much body-specific shame. I grew up on Long Island as a little Jewish girl with hairy arms, and all the girls around me were getting nose jobs. 

HALKIAS: It’s a fish out of water thing? Nice try trying to wiggle your way out of this by being like, “I’m a woman, you’ll never get it.” I know plenty of women on the exact opposite end of this. I’m saying, what about your experience as a woman makes having a female body particularly horrible? You’re talking about when you’re 16, you were self-conscious about your virginity to the point where that’s the first joke you want to make, which I relate to.  My first years in comedy were like, “I’m such a fucking loser. I can’t get any pussy.” But I guess my body shame was being fat as hell.

SHERMAN: Now you’re swimming in pussy.

HALKIAS: [Laughs] No, that’s not what it’s like. You weren’t a fat kid, but you were just insecure about your body. Obviously, it’s a nightmare. Women do have to be—

SHERMAN: I have such bad anxiety that it’s like I just shit all day long. All of my mental illnesses express themselves anal explosively. 

HALKIAS: When’s the first time your body let you down? Was there a particular bout of diarrhea in fucking first grade?

SHERMAN: I was always a lactose-intolerant Jew, but there’s this weird self-cutting thing with Jews where it’s like we have an entirely cream-based diet, and it’s just self-flagellation.

HALKIAS: Wow. Yes.

SHERMAN I was on a 100 percent cream cheese diet my whole life. One of my strongest memories is being a little kid at the public pool and shitting my one-piece so hard the diarrhea goes up the front and up the back. I just have a memory of my mom wiping shit off my tits. 

HALKIAS: Can I be honest with you? That might explain literally everything.

SHERMAN: I know.

HALKIAS: Your mom wiping shit off your tits because you diarrhea-ed yourself so hard as a child. Your honor, no further questions [Laughs]. 

SHERMAN: Wow. I didn’t realize that that was…Wow.

HALKIAS: That encapsulates literally everything. The family stuff. Insecurity about your body. The shit stuff. 

SHERMAN: Not to spoiler alert myself, but it explains the meditation, too. I do TM. I leave the body.

HALKIAS: If they were able to put your consciousness in a machine, would you do it?

SHERMAN: Yes.

HALKIAS: You crave leaving your mortal coil?

SHERMAN: No, because I’m obsessed with it.

HALKIAS: Do you ever see a world where your body’s not an adversary, but an ally?

SHERMAN: I think the older I get, the more it’s my ally.

HALKIAS: That’s good.

SHERMAN: And we’ve talked about this, too. When I’m on SNL in a blonde wig, my body is tea and everyone else is coffee.

HALKIAS: Wow. Sarah Sherman. Even though you probably on some level looked at it as copping out, it might’ve been therapeutic for you to be forced to do essentially normal girl drag. But it shows you that, “Hey, I’m a conventionally attractive person if I just fucking knock it off with the polka dot overalls I found in a fucking gutter and the fucking mullet. I could be hot.”

SHERMAN: [Laughs] This is why it was so important. Everyone was like, “Shouldn’t the special be Sarah Sherman because no one knows who Sarah Squirm is?” And I was like, “No.”

HALKIAS: I agree with that. Well, I think we covered it.

SHERMAN: I think we covered it.

HALKIAS: Unfortunately, I do understand you more than you want. I’m trying to make you uncomfortable, and that will be your actual solution.

SHERMAN: You’ve made the Squirm squirm, Stav.