Interview

JAY-Z: It’s more to deal with. Before it was just this rebellious point of view, and then money was introduced into the situation—and marketing and corporations—and then you had to figure out how to maneuver around that and to keep the music pure, while, at the same time, capitalizing off your art. I think people should get paid for their art, but there’s a way to do it. When you listen to an album, it shouldn’t feel like, “That’s the girl song,” “That’s the club song.” I shouldn’t know what you’re thinking while you’re making the song. I don’t want to know what the artist is thinking.

MITCHELL: No?

JAY-Z: No. When I listen to great music, the first thing I wonder is what people were saying when this came out of the speakers in the studio. I want to know what happened when they played it and said, “This is the one!” And then I wonder where the artist was at in their lives. Artists get hungry, or have success, or are afraid of failure, or have been cast off as finished and come back and make a great album—there are all those moments in an artist’s career. That’s intriguing to me. Like, when Lauryn Hill got pregnant, and she wrote that line “they said, Lauryn, baby, use your head/but instead I chose to use my heart” [from “To Zion” off The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill, 1998], I thought that was just such a powerful time for her. That was like a crossroads for her—like, people must have been telling her, “What are you gonna do? You’re gonna put your career in jeopardy if you have this baby.” But she just made the decision to have her kid, and she was talking about it on this record.

MITCHELL: It’s funny, though, because you’re talking about not wanting to know what the artist is thinking, yet so much of rap has been about people assuming that they already know that. Like in the days of East Coast–West Coast feuds, when you were having beefs with people . . .

JAY-Z: Yeah, but that’s on a surface level—I’m talking about something deeper than that. I never even told him this, but I remember that Eminem came into the studio when we made “Moment of Clarity,” which he produced, on The Black Album. So here’s Eminem. It’s 2003, I think The Eminem Show had come out, and he was like the biggest rapper in the world—he sold like 20 million records worldwide or some ridiculous number. But when he came to the studio, I remember I hugged him, and I could feel that he had on a bulletproof vest. I couldn’t imagine being that successful. I mean, he’s a guy who loves rap and wanted to be successful his whole career. Then he finally gets it, and there’s this dark cloud over him. There’s this big beef between 50 Cent and Ja Rule—and between real people, too—so he has to worry about that. He has to be afraid to walk around New York freely. I was like, “Here it is. You’ve gotten everything you wanted, and now you’re a prisoner of your own fame.” That’s sad to me—that you have to walk around in a bulletproof vest after you’ve sold 20 million records. So, the point being, what I’m interested in is the thing under the thing. You can think you know where he was at when he said those raps, but I saw another level of it personally, and I found it sad.

MITCHELL: So many of your songs have been about the repercussions of things—you do something, and then something else happens. Now that you’re older, do you have to think about things in a way that maybe you haven’t before?

JAY-Z: Well, when I did my first album, I was 26, so I was a little more mature than a lot of other guys—you know, to a lot of the rappers’ credit, they’re making albums when they’re 17. I can’t imagine the shit I would’ve said when I was 17. I can’t even tell you how reckless my thinking was at that age. Nas made Illmatic [1994] when he was 19, which was an incredible accomplishment—I can’t even understand it. But when my first album [Reasonable Doubt] came out, I was 26, which is why it was a little bit more introspective. Plus, I was already out on my own at 15, 16 years old. My mom didn’t put me out, but she did the best thing for me. She allowed me to search. She gave me a long leash, like, “All right. It’s tough out there. Go ahead.” So I grew up really early and I’ve always been aware of these things. My awareness of them just intensifies with every year.

MITCHELL: What’s it like when you talk to Kanye West now? How are things different between you guys from what they werelike when you first spotted him and he was producing for you?

JAY-Z: Well, he’s really more of a peer now. You know, before, he was more a new guy trying to get on—a fan of the music that I’ve made and my lifestyle—so things were a little different. But he’s an extraordinary person. He has these ideas and these things that he wants to do and places he wants to go, and he’s really passionate about them. He’s very sincere.

MITCHELL: Sometimes his passions ruin him.

JAY-Z: Yeah, which is great. I like that, man! I really do. I mean, no one’s walking around here perfect. Everyone’s gonna make mistakes. That’s part of how you learn. I think Kanye . . . Well, I know he said what he believed. He was telling the truth.

MITCHELL: To which event are you referring?

JAY-Z: I’m talking about the Taylor Swift thing. I just think the timing of what he did was wrong, and that, of course, overshadowed everything. He believed that “Single Ladies” [by Jay-Z’s wife, Beyoncé] was a better video. I believed that. I think a lot of people believed that. You can’t give someone Video of the Year if they don’t win Best Female Video. I thought Best Female Video was something you won on the way to Video of the Year. But, hey, I guess it wasn’t—and that’s a whole other conversation about awards shows and artists.

MITCHELL: You seem to stay away from that awards show stuff for the most part.

JAY-Z: Yeah, because it ain’t about nothing. It’s cool. It’s acknowledgment. The fans get to see you, and you can do great by your record if you have a great performance or a great night there. That’s all part of the business. But at their core, awards shows are not really a sincere thing. You know, for a lot of years, the artists had to pay to play their own set.

MITCHELL: No kidding!

JAY-Z: Yes. That was the worst scam ever. I couldn’t even believe it. I mean, just now they’re starting to pay for half the sets and some awards shows pay for the whole thing. But this is just happening now—and it’s only because the record companies ran out of money.

MITCHELL: You’ve always had interesting takes on awards shows. I remember back in the day, you talked about the Grammys and said, “Well, they don’t take rap seriously, so why should I go? They don’t know what we do—and they don’t care about what we do.”

JAY-Z: It’s just honest, man—they really didn’t. I’ve always seen awards shows for what they are. For the awards show people, it’s about sponsorships—it’s not about recognizing anyone’s art, because if you get into the business of recognizing art, then you have to get it right all the time. You have to get it right. You can’t have the woman who wins Video of the Year not win Best Female Video. I mean, Herbie Hancock is great, but you can’t have him beat the Kanye album that year. I mean, come on, seriously. That can’t happen. That just lets me know that the people who get to pick these ballots just check the only name they know. I think that’s what’s happening with rap music now.

MITCHELL: Yeah?

JAY-Z: I think it’s a bunch of people who don’t know anything about rap, and have probably never even heard a Kanye West album, are doing the nominating, and they say, “Kanye West. I know that name. That’s the guy who made the comments about the president that time! He’s nominated!” That’s how the process works, and I think that’s part of Kanye’s frustration. Me, I look at it for what it is. But Kanye is so passionate about it. I mean, the guy shot three “Jesus Walks” videos. Three. Two of them he shot with his own money just so he could get it right. He really cares about it. And then, back to the original point, his passion kicks in and he takes things too far . . . He doesn’t realize that that girl, Taylor Swift, is just like him. That was her moment. It wasn’t her fault. She didn’t do anything. It’s not her awards show. So he just did the wrong thing to the wrong person at the wrong time. 

MITCHELL: Did he call you that night? Did you guys talk about what happened right away?

JAY-Z: We actually had to fly out because we were doing Leno the next day, and he called and said he wasn’t getting on the plane. I knew he didn’t want to have the conversation yet. It’s more of a big brother relationship with me and him. But he came the next day, and we spoke in the dressing room. We had a nice, long talk. I think he did the right thing to face it and just move on. I say this all the time, but I think, at the end of the day, we’re gonna celebrate him for his passion more than vilify him.

This is an excerpt of the February cover story. To read the full Jay-Z interview pick up a copy of Interview.